The Accounting Podcast

David: What if, instead of sending your clients a report as a PDF from QuickBooks, you could invite them to a suite of interactive reports where they can drill down on any number, gain insights, and easily communicate with you about any report, account, total, or even an individual transaction? What if you could do this for free? Stay tuned to hear more from our sponsor, Digits, later in the episode.

[00:00:25] Preview

Blake: Yeah, what they should be teaching us is like, “Here's a messed up process. How do we make it better? How do we optimize it?” ‘Cause that's a lot of what accountants are doing now, especially with no code. It's about taking a process, understanding it, fixing it or optimizing it, or whatever word you want to use, and then applying the technology to it.

If you just teach people the technology, but they don't know how to think critically about a process, they're just going to make a bad process more efficient, which doesn't help anyone.

David Leary: Coming to you weekly from the OnPay recording studio, this is The Cloud Accounting Podcast.

[00:01:05] Introduction

Blake: Welcome to another episode of The Cloud Accounting Podcast. I'm Blake Oliver.

David: I'm David Leary.

Blake: David, good to see you.

David: We stepped up our light game here. I turn on my lights. You turn on your lights.

Blake: Well, our regular listeners cannot see us right now. We only put up clips of our show on social media occasionally, but if you happen to catch one on LinkedIn or on Twitter, you'll see we upped our game with the lighting in the background. Are we going to become YouTubers?

David: If anything, we get to see each other like this.

Blake: Exactly.

David: I think that’s the difference. That's the difference on that? So, you went away. You went to Disney, came back. So, last time, we recorded, you were in your father-in-law’s studio.

Blake: Yes.

David: I, that weekend, was staying- my wife was out of town, so I was- I stayed home, did the opposite, right?

[00:01:54] Everything Everywhere All At Once

David: I stayed home and Jamison and I went and saw- he was like, “Oh, we got to go see this movie, Everything Everywhere All At Once.” I'm like, “That's a crazy title.” I didn't really know anything about it. And then he kind of half-showed me the preview, and they're really into- my kids are really into like the Korean- those bands like BTS and the Korean pop and those Korean shows.

What was the one on Netflix? The really big one, where the people had to crawl?

Blake: Well, you're talking about Squid Game.

David: Squid game, right. So, they're really into all that whole scene. So, I'm like, “All right, I'll appease you. Let's go see this movie.” So, go to this movie- and the reason I'm bringing it up on the show is basically, the whole entire movie takes place at an IRS office.

Blake: Really?

David: So, the main character is- they're being audited. Now, there's time travel and all this other crazy stuff going on. Like some of this is like, it's a dark comedy. Some of it's an action flick, you know. There's- it's just a good movie, but yeah, the IRS auditor is Jamie Lee Curtis, and I don't want to spoil the movie for people, but she points to these trophies she has on her desk, for like being the number one auditor.

And the trophies at the IRS- and cover your kids' ears- essentially, they’re butt plugs because she talks about how she, like- she reams people how. I’m just like, it was just genius. So, the whole time I’m watching this movie, I’m like-

Blake: Oh man.

David: “Oh, this is like a movie account- this is for accountants and bookkeepers.” The whole thing takes place at the IRS.

Blake: I have to see this now. I'm excited. Yeah.

David: You have to see it.

[00:03:27] AI created voices

Blake: Well, there's another movie that everyone's going to see this week. Probably this weekend too. And that's Top Gun.

David: Yes. On the list. On the list.

Blake: On your list? Okay. So, here's a crazy fact about Top Gun. Val Kilmer is in the movie and, you know, Val Kilmer, he lost his voice. And I don't remember why, like throat cancer, something. He can't speak anymore. Or when he-

David: Yes. He came to Tucson. He did a one-man show where he was- oh man, who's the big- Mark Twain, right? He did a one-man show. And then afterwards, he opened up to the audience for questions. And he came out and I didn't know- like mostly, I just didn't know at the time, he was suffering cancer. I just thought he was drunk off his ass.

Because he was struggling to talk and you're like, “What is going on?” And then to find out after the fact. Yeah. So, that's on recent- in the last, like three years I saw him recently.

Blake: So, listeners, stick with me. There's a tie-in to our profession here. So, Val Kilmer is in the movie. You can't make Top Gun without Val Kilmer and Tom Cruise, right?

David: Yes.

Blake: He couldn't speak. And so, the way- if you go see the movie, you'll see that he speaks, and the way they did it is they created his dialogue with AI. They trained an artificial intelligence with his recordings of his voice to do-

David: Like all his old movies and stuff like that.

Blake: Yes, yes. Which listeners to the show will remember. I've done this with emails that we get, with tweets from our listeners. I can convert those using an AI. It's an app called Descript that we use to produce this show. And it will take text and it'll create an AI version of that voice and then read it.

And you can actually do this with your own voice. And I've done this with my own voice. Perhaps, in a future episode, I'll play a clip of that. But it's like a really powerful tool. And a lot of people don't notice it when it- it's getting- gotten so good. And so, that's what they did in Top Gun.

And I bet you, a lot of people won't even notice. And also, I saw something similar- actually even more striking in Obi Wan- not Obi Wan, Boba Fett, the book of Boba Fett on Disney Plus. Are you a Star Wars fan, David?

David: I am sort of [INAUDIBLE], but like, I don’t know. I can't keep up. There's too many shows.

Blake: Well, so, you know-

David: And if nothing’s numbered, I don't know what to do. That's why I stopped watching Harry Potters. I'm like, “Which one is this? I don't know. I can't do this. I need numbers.” That’s why Rocky was great. It was easy. It was numbered for me.

Blake: So, in the book of Boba Fett, there's an episode- I don't want to spoil it too much for people, so I won't give away a lot, but basically, Grogu and Baby Yoda ends up at Luke Skywalker's Academy, Jedi Academy. And you know, Mark Hamill, this show takes place when Luke Skywalker is still young and Mark Hamill is by no means, young.

So, the question was, are they going to recast him? Are they going to recast Luke Skywalker, which would be kind of hard for people, right? That would be a big change since nobody's ever played him, other than Mark Hamill. And so, what they did is they used a body double and then CGI’d Mark Hamill's face and voice onto the body double. They didn't even use Mark Hamill. And you can tell it's not quite perfect, but it's so good, it's shocking how good it is.

David: Wow.

Blake: It's like he's in the movie. So, this is a future in which- this is pointing to a future in which we're going to have movies with famous actors where they didn't- it's just their face and voice. They didn't- they weren't in the film.

David: So, how does this- or yes, like your tie-in to accountants? Besides the fact that your recorded our voicemails like that using the similar technology-

Blake: Yeah.

[00:07:15] Deep Fakes and fraud

David: -like, where's this tie in? I'm waiting for the big, “Oh. And I noticed, blah, blah, blah. You know, the Big Four did something.”

Blake: So, this technology- so, the dark side of this technology is known as deep fake technology.

David: Yes.

Blake: So, this technology has been used- this kind of technology has been used by fraudsters to call up a head of finance and pretend to be the CEO, and ask for a wire transfer. The voice sounds real. And you can actually create the voices in real time or with very little delay. Like, I can type on my computer and create your voice, David.

David: So, I call you first, you being employee so-and-so.

Blake: Yeah.

David: You have a conversation, I get a little sample of your voice. Then I turn that into- I write up a different phone call and I use your voice to turn it into a conversation. Then I call the CEO to get some bill approved.

Blake: Yeah. Yeah. Like, and if I'm a public person, you've probably got plenty of recordings of me talking. Right? So, you just feed that into the AI model.

David: Oh yeah. if it’s a big corporation, yeah, the CFO does a video- conference calls, right? Yeah.

Blake: So, for example, with the app we use, which is consumer-grade technology, you can use as little as 10 minutes of audio, feed that in and get a voice. And it- I played it for my wife and it sounded- she was like, “Wow. From- if I wasn't really paying attention, sounds like you.” So, yeah, what you can do is- and this has happened- is make a voice model of a CEO or somebody who has purchased authority, call up somebody who can make those payments, like David.

In the example you gave, you would create a voice model- somebody could create a voice model of you, based on our podcast, call me up and say, “Hey, Blake, I want to change my bank account for transfers for my podcast host fees,” and then get me to change it. And then now, we've been defrauded.

David: So- and I’m trying to take it here. So, you're using Bill.com or Melio, you know, lots of these AP approval process or apps that are out there. And a lot of these apps have an inbox where you can just email the invoice in.

Blake: Right.

David: Alright. So, even though there's an approval process, they could email a fake invoice in on one end, or a fake bill make that phone call that feels like an approval, and you push it through.

Blake: Right. Yeah.

David: So, do you- should you have- I guess where I'm thinking, “Yes, it's nice to have the approval come through the app, but then should you also- at your- depending on the size of the firm, or your client or whoever this is, a certain amount of approvals that maybe have to come through a private channel, like, Hey, there's this one Slack channel that nobody can get to from the outside of the world and that additional verification.

Blake: Yeah, I think multifactor is the key.

David: Yeah, sort of. Yeah.

Blake: So, if you're still- it used to be like, you know, a video call, a voice call was plenty. You couldn't fake somebody's voice very easily. And it was unlikely that was going to happen. And so, people relied on this. I'd call them up, ask for the money transfer, it goes through. You can't do that anymore.

Can't rely on that anymore. So, two-factor authentication. So, after the call, send a text message and say yes to confirm, something like that, right? Or-

David: ‘Cause I mean, I’ve seen this with- through email where they'll send the email saying, “Hey, we changed banks, make the payment go here now.” And by the time you catch it, it's over. You've already transferred the money, it’s gone.”

Blake: Yeah. Yeah.

David: And so, this, they could do the same thing. They could just make a phone call, this is Joe and Joe from Joe's plumbing. When you go to pay me, it says new bank account.

Blake: Yeah. And you cannot tell with these expensive AI models that they use for these films. You can't tell that this is not the actor. And so, it's going to get down to consumer level. It's going to get down to the hackers, they're going to do this stuff. So, yeah, it's a-

David: So, it feels like there’s an opportunity here for third-party app developers that's like two factor, right? Like, there’s going to have to be a second layer of some type of verification that's outside the typical workflow. Because even if you think you have the workflow in now, it's subject to some risk.

[00:11:18] Elon Musk says all employees must come back to the office

Blake: So, the other bit of news that caught my attention was our friend, Elon Musk, told all of his employees, emailed all of his employees at all of his companies, that they must all come back to the office at least 40 hours a week, no exceptions. And that got widely reported in the Wall Street Journal, New York times, of course, you know, anything. You can't escape Elon Musk these days, anything he says.

I think I saw somebody tweet this is like, “If I could just like not hear about Elon Musk for the rest of my life, I'd be happy.” Right? But sorry, not going to happen.

David: So, what's his reasoning on this? I'm going to speculate that, you know, as he digs in the covers more on Twitter, I think he's discovering that nobody's been working at Twitter for three or four years, essentially.

Blake: Well, the CEO of Twitter-

David: And he’s just swinging the pendulum the other direction.

Blake: So, Jack Dorsey, CEO of Twitter, told everyone they could work remotely forever. Right? So, those people are probably freaking out right now about Elon Musk potentially owning it.

So, I mean, his reasoning is that- let's just read from the email. Everyone at Tesla is required to spend a minimum of 40 hours in the office per week. Moreover, the office must be where your actual colleagues are located, not some remote pseudo office. If you don't show up, we will assume you have resigned. The more senior you are, the more visible must be your presence. That is why I lived in the factory so much, so that those on the line could see me working alongside them.

If I had not done that, Tesla would long ago have gone bankrupt. There are, of course, companies that don't require this, but when was the last time they shipped a great new product? It's been a while. Tesla has, and will create and actually manufacture the most exciting and meaningful products of any company on earth. This will not happen by phoning it in. Thanks, Elon.

And the headline of that email, the subject line of the email was ‘to be super clear’.

David: Wow.

Blake: Yeah. So, you know, this is-

David: And then that's fine. Like make your statement-

Blake: Yeah.

David: Your firm, whatever, you're going to be 100 percent hybrid firm, you’re going to be 100 percent remote firm, you're going to be in an office for a minimum. Let employees choose where they want to work. It's very clear that- so, there's no grayness on this.

Blake: Yeah.

David: Now, the next person that applies to work for an Elon Musk company will know what they're getting into, right?

Blake: Exactly. And that's some of the response to this that I've heard- that I've read online from people who worked at his companies, is that it's not the kind of place you go to have work-life balance. If you're an engineer at SpaceX or Tesla or whatever, you're there to like, dedicate your life to that.

David: They’re there to win.

Blake: Yeah. And that's great. Companies like that, great. Like if that's what the company culture is, great. And probably, in-person is the best fit for that. But like, I think the reason accounting firms are struggling is because we're not making rockets that go to Mars. It's not the most exciting thing. Audits can be done from anywhere.

David: The nature of the work, correct. Right?

Blake: And once people realize that- yeah, it's the nature of the work, right? And like, people don't go into accounting because they want to change the world. They go into accounting because they want to have a steady, stable career that pays well, and it's work they enjoy.

Like, that's me. Right? Like, I switched careers because I was tired of being a poor, broke musician, or I could see that future for myself and I didn't want that. I wanted to have a nice quality of life and do something that I liked.

David: So, I mean, it makes sense, right? Like in- because Airbnb is basically set, everybody can be 100 percent work anywhere you want, which makes sense. Because if you're in the business of making software for people to vacation and work from wherever they want, you want your employees to actually have that experience as well, so they can write a better product.

So, it definitely makes sense from a strategic standpoint, but you're right. Like, when it comes to the work, if the work can be done anywhere, like why does it matter?

Blake: Yeah. And the facts are against Musk on this point. Americans work more when they work from home. Makes obvious sense to me. They're not commuting. They're not wasting time chatting with coworkers. It’s just so much more efficiency come into your office at home in the morning, and then they're actually getting better at it.

[00:15:27] Vox Study on working from home

Blake: There was a story in Vox about a study at Stanford university, Nicholas Bloom, a professor there, has been studying remote work since before it was cool. That's in the article. He teamed up with University of Chicago and MIT and ITAM, and did this huge ongoing survey about employee's work arrangements and attitudes toward remote work.

In April, people who worked remotely, at least some of the time, reported being 9 percent more efficient working from home than they were working from the office. That's up from 5 percent in the summer of 2020. So, we have actually gotten better at it.

David: But is this also starting to become an economic class thing? And what I mean by that is like, people that work fast food, they don't get to work from home. People that are on the factory line don't get work from home.

Like, is this going to turn it people that have the luxury to work from home? Like, is this turning into that type of a divide- another divide in our society, the work from home or people that can't work from home?

Blake: Yeah.

David: And a good example of this- and this is- I definitely see where, you know, Musk is going to be dead right on this, did you watch on Netflix, the documentary about Boeing?

Blake: No.

David: So, Boeing, you know, obviously, they've had all these crashes. They used to never have crashes, right? And the reason why, ultimately, it was all in Seattle; everything was in Seattle. The engineers were in Seattle. They put the plans together in Seattle, management was in Seattle.

Everything was in Seattle at the one location. Well, then they got by Northrop Grumman or whoever- somebody bought them eventually. And then they moved all the management to Chicago. And that's like working remotely, right?

Blake: Right.

David: Basically, all the managers and all the people that aren't actually putting the plane together are in a whole different city. And what happened is the communication cycles broke down and planes crashed, ultimately. That's essentially, what caused those three or four- those planes that went down, right? There was a-

Blake: Yeah. Yeah.

David: And it's because of- the management was so far away from the product. And this could happen if you're building stuff. People that are remote- like, you're going to be away from the product.

Blake: I could see that.

David: Now again, does it matter for accounting and bookkeeping? I don't know.

Blake: Interesting. That's something to consider. I mean, and as we've talked in the past, people who work remotely are more likely to blow the whistle on their companies. So, the SEC saw an increase- I mean, that's my conclusion.

David: Interesting.

Blake: The SEC saw an increase in whistleblowing during the pandemic when people were working at home. And I attribute that to people being less loyal to their companies when they work remotely. And that's contributing to the turnover that we have in our profession too.

[00:18:03] Thank you to our sponsor, A2X

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[00:19:09] The Journal of Accountancy's article on remote work and audit

David: And I think that was a- we had an article or it was a title about that. I think I remember like, if you've never actually been to the office, have you even ever actually worked there? And so, it's easy for the company to just blow you off and lay you off just as it is for you just to quit.

Blake: Right, right. So, there was a story in the Journal of Accountancy related to remote work. And specifically, when it comes to audit. Jennifer Wilson of Convergence Coaching did- does a biennial survey, the Anytime, Anywhere Work Survey. Now, in the latest version of that survey, which is focused on remote work, 61 percent- so, over half of 223 CPA firms surveyed, they plan to conduct more than half of their audit work remotely in the future.

And that same question when asked pre-pandemic only had 17 percent of firms indicating they'd conduct the majority of their audit work away from client locations. That's a huge shift. And I don't think it's going to go back, right? It's just so much cheaper to do the audit remotely.

David: I guess that's why I definitely have a question on, right? ‘Cause like a lot of things with audit, don't you need to go and open the file cabinets and get like the physical bank statements, count the fiscal year, inventory?

Blake: Well-

David: Does seem like some part- that's the point of auditing, making sure what's reported on reports is matching the physical, real world.

[00:20:33] Blake's personal audit story

Blake: So, I had the exact situation of making- I helped make an audit go remote. When I was in practice, I worked for a not-for-profit that had an annual audit and I was responsible for all the books. This is actually before I started my firm, and it was my biggest client when I was freelancing. Auditor used to come in three days every year to do the audit.

And they would pull the bills from the filing cabinet. They would pull the canceled checks. They would pull the bank statements, all that stuff, and I had to help. And then we went on to bill.com and we did Xero, and we did payroll. Well, payroll was already like ADP, I think, but basically, I could give them access to bill.com.

You could see all the approvals, see all the payments, trace everything to the bank statements, which are all online, was able to only come in one day to do the interviews. You know, those interviews where you sit down and they ask you the questions, like, “Did you commit any fraud?” And then you say, like, “No, I didn't, please.”

You know, basically those check-the-box kind of interview questions where they ask you about internal controls and all that crap. And it was like, he was so happy. You have no idea. He told me he was kind of like an odd ball kind of guy, but I think a lot of audit partners are.

David: Please send emails to Blake.

Blake: He told me- no, he said, “Blake, this is amazing. I did most of the audit in my underwear, on my couch.” I was like, “That was not an image I needed to have in my head.” I'm sorry, but yeah. So, like, that was an early version of it. Right? I made it possible for him. And now, with all the cloud tools-

David: So, it’s like the hybrid model.

Blake: Yeah, it was hybrid. Right? And there's some stuff you have to do face-to-face, but like now with Zoom and stuff, hey, why not? Why can't I get on a call with somebody and do it on Zoom? Do you really think the auditors are like really sniffing out fraud with like in-person body language? I doubt it.

David: Yeah, I don’t know.

Blake: They're so bad at catching it in the first place. You think it's gonna make a difference whether somebody is on a screen or not? I really doubt it.

David: That's possible. That's possible.

Blake: I don't know. Anyway, anything more about remote work? I don't think so. Where do you want to go from here?

[00:22:45] The role of the CFO is changing

David: No, but this could be kind of tied, I guess. So, this is an article in Financial Express about how CFOs are more involved in corporate strategy, digitization, and less involved in the accounting and auditing at the organization. Right? And essentially-

Blake: CEOs or CFOs?

David: These are CFOs.

Blake: CFOs, less involved.

David: So, this is a study conducted by KREA, K-R-E-A University and Dunham Branch Tree. And essentially, like one of the findings in there, CFOs now find themselves more involved in corporate strategy, organizational transformation, digitization, enterprise risk management.

So, if everybody's working remotely, like how- and we're on the agreement that maybe the accounting and bookkeeping and financial stuff can be done remotely, does that mean like CFOs are going to have to be in the office more to work with all the other teams of the organization?

Blake: Yeah.

David: And then the other big takeaway in there had talked about how CFOs need to build up relationship capital through greater people-oriented skills, including communication, collaboration with teams across your organization. So, even though it's not true that remote work story, it’s just like, how do you do those things if the employees aren't around or you're- you are not in the office?

[00:23:52] Listener voicemail on training accountants and problem with recruiting accountants

Blake: So, David, we got a listener voicemail, and I love when we get these. So, I'd like to play it for you.

Alison: Hey there, Blake and David. My name is Alison Rife Martin. I am a CPA and a small CPA firm owner. I'm also a regular listener and love your insightful and thought-provoking podcast. I wanted to comment on your discussion on Accounting Today's article, train accountants on technology or technologists on accounting?

The article asks the wrong question and speaks to how society views education. Education is now viewed as training for skills, not educating for knowledge, understanding and most importantly, critical thinking. The question also speaks to why fewer people are going into the accounting profession. Our focus and the questions in the article are- seem to always be on the process of accounting, not the knowledge of accounting.

If I knew that all I had to look forward to in accounting was posting journal entries, reconciling accounts, closing the books each month and always just only preparing a tax return, I would never go into the profession because as I'm sure we all know, the process of accounting itself is boring.

Now, what I think the question fails to address is that accounting is the root language of business. If I am taught how to speak and interpret the language of accounting and ultimately business, I am in a much better position to be a valuable advisor to a business owner. And I can do more than just give a 30,000-foot view of the data and what the differences are every year as Jim Burke suggests in the article.

We all know it's difficult to learn another language. Heck, I think back to junior high, high school and college, all the way up to advanced French grammar, learning French, it's really difficult and it took a lot of time. Now, once we master speaking and understanding the language of accounting, we are in a great position again, to provide valuable input to help the business owners grow their businesses in the direction that they want to go.

I think the accounting profession has lost sight of emphasizing how valuable we are, once we master the language. And this is where accounting should shift their focus, back to how to speak and help business owners understand accounting rather than just how to do it. And to quote Benjamin Franklin, “Tell me, and I will forget. Teach me and I will remember, involve me and I will learn.” That's where the accounting profession should go back to.

Now, that said, I am team accounting. I might not know how to pull the data to get the answer to the question, but I know what to ask for and why I'm asking for it. My understanding of accounting and business helped me to do both the granular and the 30,000-foot view, providing insight beyond just the original question. Thanks again for your time. And I really do love your podcast.

Blake: Thank you so much, Alison, for that very thoughtful voicemail.

David: The quality was so good. Like her pace is great. Like it's such a good- she should start a podcast.

Blake: Well, I guess we should offer some context in case our listeners don't recall or didn't listen to that episode. So, that was in response to an article that we talked about in Accounting Today, asking whether or not it's easier these days to hire accountants and train them on technology, or hire technology people and train them on accounting.

And there was a bit of a debate or different viewpoints expressed in that article.

David: I guess even the way that that question comes across, it's coming out right out of the gate that it's one or the other, like-

Blake: Well, to be fair-

David: That one person can’t be taught this and that person can't be taught this. It's like, it's already seated with that mindset.

Blake: Well, no, I mean, I think the premise is you can teach it. The question is what's easier.

David: Yeah. Yeah.

Blake: And among the firm owners that I talked to, the vast majority, at least the majority I'm sure would say it's easier these days to, in a modern firm, take somebody who knows technology and is good with technology and teach them the fundamentals of accounting. I agree with that 100 percent.

It's very difficult to take somebody who's had no exposure to tech and has only done a traditional accounting degree, and the CPA exam, and teach them how to do all this stuff, because they didn't learn it in school. It's like not in the curriculum in most schools. Like, QuickBooks might be an elective, if you're lucky.

Say nothing of ERP systems and procurement systems and bill pay systems and payroll systems and all these systems that we use now, most people are still learning how to do journal entries on paper. So, for me, I come down firmly on the side of, it's easier to train a technologist to do accounting because the education lacks.

And I agree with Alison very strongly that it's important that we teach accountants to do critical thinking. And that one of the big problems with our current system of education is that we don't teach that. We teach people rules to follow, and we don't teach them how to think critically. We don't think that- teach them how to ask why.

And so, you end up with people who don't- it's actually- it was good in the past when there was a process and a system that didn't change, and you just needed people to come in and follow an existing process, same as last year. Right? But it's not good in a changing, dynamic environment where you need people to change how they're doing things.

And so like, this is a problem with accounting education. You know, my personal experience could have been on the side of just teach people the rules. But I think a lot of programs still just teach the CPA exam and the CPA exam is very rules-based. And you know, they've added technology into the CPA exam.

Like, it's still not about critical thinking. It's way more important to be a good, critical thinker and to know how to ask questions, and to solve problems these days, because everything's changing so fast than to memorize rules and regulations. And that's still what-

David: So, the really valuable person here would be somebody that has an accounting major, that has a minor in maybe engineering or a minor in acting method-

Blake: Philosophy.

David: or Philosophy, yeah. Right?

Blake: Yeah. Liberal arts, somebody who can write and read and think critically. Right? That's super important. I mean, for a while after school, I was upset with myself because I'd done- basically, I started as a liberal arts major, did a good chunk of that. And then I went into music and I didn't have any practical skills when I graduated. And I was in the great recession, and that sucked because I couldn't get a job because people only wanted to hire you if you had practical skills, like you could just get up and running.

So, that's why I ended up getting an accounting certificate. And I'm realizing now, as I'm older, that the critical thinking skills I got as a liberal arts student, the student of literature and writing and rhetoric and all that stuff has made me invaluable because there's so many people that can’t think that way, and it's really hard to train an adult to think critically when they didn't learn it in school.

I mean, it takes years and years and years to be a good thinker. Right? And so, that's the problem is, like with the CPA exam, we're going in the wrong direction because we're just adding in technology, but we're not teaching people to think critically about it. And the technology is going to be outdated by the time you actually get into the workforce, at this point.

David: Well, I think- and I don't know if it's still true, but like, I always remember the accounting books when I was in college. Like, they’d always have like this CD-ROM glued to the back. Right? And then it would be some like weird modified version of a DOS Lotus 123 kind of spreadsheet program. And this is well in the 90s, so Windows was around. Right?

But you’d definitely be using technology that was 20 years old. So, I'm sure probably now, it's moved to some sort of web-based type thing in theory, where they’re still putting the CD-ROM in the back of the book.

Blake: I learned how to do process diagrams in my managerial accounting course. And we had to memorize the icons for like tape backup drives, you know, and all this stuff that doesn't even exist. I mean, I guess it probably still exists in some corporations, but I was just like shocked. But they were teaching us to diagram these things, but they weren't teaching us how to optimize them or improve them or think about them critically.

David: Or actually use them.

Blake: Or use them, right. They were just teaching us how to make it.

David: You never actually touched a tape drive. You've never actually made a backup, it's just the design.

Blake: Yeah, what they should be teaching us is like, “Here's a messed up process. How do we make it better? How do we optimize it?” And- ‘cause that's a lot of what accountants are doing now, especially with no code. It's about taking a process, understanding it, fixing it or optimizing it, or whatever word you want to use, and then applying the technology to it.

If you just teach people the technology, but they don't know how to think critically about a process, they're just going to make a bad process more efficient, which doesn't help anyone.

[00:32:56] Thank you to our sponsor, Digits

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[00:34:03] Accounting Today's "The Frontier" article on emails and efficiency

David: And I'll play off of that word, this bad process more efficient. So, what's prompted that voicemail was the article. So, Accounting Today is running a series called “The Frontier”. Right? And so, the same people that were in the other article have been asked a new question, right?

And this time, the title of the article this time is The Frontier- for efficiency to live, email must die.

Blake: For efficiency to live, email must die?

David: Email must die. And-

Blake: This is like, it's never going to die guys. Like-

David: Well, that's some of that- yes. But I also feel like it's not email. Like, what- we're focusing on the wrong problem. So, let's just read their quotes first and discuss from there.

Blake: Right. Right. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry, go ahead.

David: So, in general, the thought leaders are saying that emails transformed from boom to burden. It's now an albatross.

Blake: Before you get into that, can you tell- what was the premise of the article? What was the question they were asked?

David: It's not as clear and as black and white about the question. There’s just some- just basically, it's hate of email.

Blake: Okay. So, it’s just a summary of people's thoughts on-

David: These four- the same four people again, right? It was the same people that they did last time. They must have interviewed them across a big swab of things and they’re breaking it up into four articles. You know, you get more clicks when you do that. They get more-

Blake: Yeah, it’s more efficient.

David: -because it gets talked about in The Cloud Accounting Podcast multiple times, I guess. Maybe that's their strategy.

Blake: That’s right. That’s right. Okay. Sorry.

David: So, essentially, the email has transformed from boom to burden. It's a albatross around the profession's neck that holds it back from digital transformation. So, that's the argument here.

Blake: Okay.

David: Like, email’s holding back the industry from transforming to the future. So, Randy Johnston, of Network Management Group Incorporated said he dislikes it for the same reasons a lot of people do - the never ending inbox. Joseph Woodard, which is- it's funny because like, it's obviously whoever wrote this or did the interviews-

Blake: Doesn't know this. Always Joe.

David: -is not in our site- not in our industry. So, this is probably a outside reporter or something. So, it says, Joseph Woodard, later voted in advance, which runs Scaling New Heights Accounting Technology Conference has more than an ample supply, which you can share out even pausing to think. “I despise email.”

I despise it because it's insecure. I despise it because it's overrunning with solicitations, which I find ironic because it's a lot of the apps that sponsors conferences. They get email addresses at these conferences and send emails to all the accountants and bookkeepers. I despise it because it creates vulnerabilities in my company through phishing schemes.

I despise it because it's a massive distraction. It's impossible to tame. It's very difficult to tame, and it costs my company tens of thousands of dollars a year by its very existence, he said. And then the other- James Borg, partner and managing director, advisory services, top 100 firm, Witham, said that other communication tools like Slack or Teams have many of the strengths of email with few of its weaknesses. And this is where like-

Blake: I disagree.

David: I, 100 percent disagree. This is why I want to bring this up because email, I do not feel like the-

Blake: Yeah. Anyone who- go ahead.

David: I have inbound messages. It used to just be inbox. It was kind of easy in those days, actually. Sure. Was email inbox gigantic. But now, I have messages on Slack. You send me messages through some Google tool.

Sometimes, I get tagged in a Notion thing. Sometimes, it's Fabro. Sometimes, it's texts. Sometimes, it’s a direct message on LinkedIn. Sometimes, it's a direct message on Twitter. Like, the amount- and then I'm in Slack in your multiple side channels. Like, it's actually crazier. It isn't better.

Blake: Yeah.

David: It's actually worse. It was better when only email existed. That's my take.

Blake: No, it's- that's a great, valid point. And I agree with you. We've replaced the overloaded inbox with hundreds or thousands of messages that you're never going to get to, that are often relevant to you with eight Slack channels and texts and Google Chats and probably a dozen different channels, in some cases. And LinkedIn, the worst.

David: Or tools that the accountants use that send emails, which is even the crazier thing. [CROSSTALK].

Blake: LinkedIn messages, LinkedIn messages, the bane of my existence? I cannot stay on top of that. Twitter direct messages. And so, it's not- I don't think that's better, honestly. Like, that's worse.

David: You know how you can get rid of email is we could all just go back to working in person and people just walk up and talk to each other, and then we'll be- we don't need any of these tools anymore.

Blake: Oh, that's the worst.

David: Now, there's no solutions about this, other than they all universally hate email and think nobody should use it anymore. And blah, blah, blah.

Blake: But I think part of the problem is that when you have multiple communication channels, you need to decide what kind of communication goes where. So, I was always very clear with the businesses that I ran, that you use email for this, you use Slack for this. Slack is for timely communication. It's for broad communication as well.

So, like in the general channel in Slack, you post stuff that might be of interest to anyone in the company. And that way, you're not overloading their inbox. And you use the direct messages to get the attention of somebody who might not be checking their email every day. But other than those situations, you use email, and there's an expected, like, response time.

And so, the problem is people don't set guidelines and just communicate- every- all communication happens everywhere. It's like that movie, everything, everywhere, all at once.

David: All at once, exactly.

Blake: Right? That's what our lives are like today.

David: But this ties back to remote work, right? You think about Slack. Like, if you're at work, there's people hanging around at the water cooler, you go over, you get your water cooler. You know like, they're the water-cooler dudes that don't actually work. You know, they hang around there all day. But you go, you get your water, but you physically can walk away.

But if you're in Slack, all these other chats keep popping up, the rooms keep popping up, the discussions keep popping up.

Blake: Yeah. That you prioritize.

David: You cannot get away from the water cooler unless you completely turn off Slack. And I had to get to that point when I was even like, you mean, I had to take Slack off my phone. It was like, “It just- I can do-”

Blake: Yeah. Yeah.

David: It couldn’t be on my phone anymore. I'd be like, “Oh, it's only open when I open it.” But like, it's very hard to put boundaries on this. And this is why there's probably a push to go back to the office. Because guess what? Now, as a manager, you can be like, “Yeah, you three doofuses that keep hanging at the water cooler, you're gone, if people have to get work done.”

[00:40:07] Thank you to our sponsor, Canopy

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[00:41:17] EY follow up

David: We haven't talked about Big Four yet. Have we?

Blake: I don't-

David: So, not too much.

Blake: No, not on this episode yet. What's new?

David: So, we talked last week as very, very, just breaking news, kind of about how EY is considering the split off of their audit and advisory businesses. Well, now, there's a little bit more news coming out about this, a little more in-depth articles, and just one thing had the numbers.

So, last year, EY had global revenue of 40 billion. 13.6 billion came from their audit work.

Blake: 40 billion, and 13.6 came from audit work. Okay.

David: From audit work. Right. The other thing is any change is going to have to be approved by the partners worldwide. So, I think last week we weren't sure, was this regional, was this global? So, it's looking like this is a complete global move. And then there's kind of a quote in here. And this is why I was like- I wrote myself a note, like, explain this, Blake.

So, actually, I’ll read the quote that I don't need you to explain to me. So, this is from Michael Shaub. He's an accounting professor at Texas A&M university. He said, “The move could reduce conflicts of interest, depending on how the profit incentives are structured.” And then it said there could be more of a firewall, which we've talked about.

This is the reason they want to break up the audit divisions from the government’s standpoint, right?

Blake: Yeah.

David: They want that separation a little bit. And they talk about- this article- that it could put pressure on the rest of the Big Four. But then there's this quote. So, this is a quote from Jim Peterson, an attorney and former Arthur Andersen partner.

“This could have a destabilizing impact on the robustness of the assurance profession.” What does that mean? Explain to me what he's talking about there.

Blake: Well, audit fees have been stagnant. It's hard to get people to take jobs in audit firms because the pay has been stagnant. There aren't a lot of people who want to be audit partners. So, they're very top-heavy. People are edging toward retirement. I'm going to- I'm willing to bet that there's a lot of audit partners that are close to retirement and they don't have enough people to replace them.

So, if you don't have the money from the consulting coming in to support all that, what happens to audits?

David: So, you break this off, there's a mass exodus of talent. So, now, you have this broken off organization. You can't just move people from the other division over, ‘cause it's a separate company now.

Blake: Yeah.

David: And you're- like, that's the disruption that's going to domino, maybe.

Blake: Yeah. And it'll impact audit quality, is the idea. I mean, audit quality is already a problem, which is why they want to do this in the first place. Right? I imagine that the reason this is happening again- and this happened once before in like 2002, after the whole Enron thing and all that stuff.

David: Well, that's- this is the biggest move since the Arthur Andersen shakeup with Enron.

Blake: Yeah. And so, it’s the con- they split off, they're- three of the Big Four split off their consulting divisions. And then they rebuilt them over 20 years. And now, they want to split them off again. But it's really- I mean, my theory is that it's actually the consultants who are like, “God, these auditors are really dragging down our image here.

Let's go off on our own,” right? Because the audits are not- the audits are leading to a liability and bad PR.

David: Yeah. So, this was a chance to break off. Yeah, you're right. ‘Cause if you're coming in to provide consulting services, and you’re EY and all the people are like, “Oh, I heard about you guys,” but it’s always [INAUDIBLE]. It’s not audit news. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I’m sure.

Blake: Exactly. Every time, right? Oh yeah. Every time, it's like, “Oh, well, you guys fucked up again.” You know? That can't be fun. So, yeah. I mean, maybe that's why they're doing it.

David: I'm sure there's pressure because of the UK. They want them split. Like, this is going to happen.

Blake: Yeah. The UK is trying to split them up, which I think is the right thing to do. Like, auditors should be independent. They shouldn't have all these conflicts of interest.

[00:44:56] The value of the audit has declined over time

Blake: But part of the problem is like, the value of the audit has declined over time because auditors and accountants, we don't know how to deal with intangible assets. And that's 90 percent of the market value of the S&P 500. And if we're not auditing the most valuable assets that a company has, then who cares? Right?

In the knowledge economy, the most valuable assets of a business are nowhere on the balance sheet, and accounting and auditing doesn't deal with it. So, that's- that, in my opinion, is the big-picture reason why audit has declined in value, and we struggle to recruit people into the profession because the work that we do is not as meaningful as it used to be.

It used to be really meaningful. Like, the audit profession grew for decades and decades, from the gilded age until the great depression, because investors demanded it. They wanted audit.

David: They made their investment decisions based off of that.

Blake: Exactly. Because the auditors were validating the assets under management, they were holding managers accountable. They were ensuring proper stewardship of funds. They were making sure that managers weren't paying dividends out of- paid in capital. They were making sure that profits were real, and preventing fraud. But they don't do that anymore. Really.

David: Well, they do it, but like, I imagine it's just not as important to investors anymore. They don't invest on that. And the greatest example, go watch that movie or the TV show, WeCrashed, which is about the WeWork story. They’re just writing checks. Nobody looked at the financials, ever. They just wrote checks.

Blake: Right. And to me, that's not a criticism of investors. It's a criticism of the financials. If the investors aren't looking at the financials, it's because the financials aren't valuable to them. And that's because accounting standards haven't changed in a hundred years, to capture-

David: Because it’s not important to- for the new world we living in.

Blake: Yeah. Yeah. And like the perfect example, which I like to talk about in my technology trends presentations is subscription businesses. And we have this whole, really wonderful system that's developed in a subscription business.

All these KPIs that we've created that investors really love. And as a subscription business, you have to report on them. You have to know, what is my CAC, what is my cost to acquire customer? What is my lifetime value? What is my CAC to LTV ratio? What is my ARR?

All this stuff is actually becoming very standard, has become very standard in the software world and technology world, but there's actually no accounting standards.

David: And that's why they play games with this, like on Facebook and Twitter. And these companies are like, “Oh, this is our active monthly users.” They all measure it how they want to measure it because there's no official standard on how to do these counts.

Blake: Exactly. And they present the data that makes them look the best. And it's not comparable most of the time because of that. So, investors, really, the most important information to them in the subscription economy is not available, most of the time. And so, they're basically guessing.

And if we really, as accountants, wanted to increase our value to the markets, we would standardize those KPIs. Did you know there's only one KPI in GAAP? There's only- I'm sorry, only one financial ratio in all of GAAP accounting. I read this somewhere.

David: And what is that?

Blake: It's earnings per share. The only one. Nowhere else is- are any of these KPIs defined that are important to investors. That just is shocking to me. So, here we are. We have FASB, we have FASB going off and saying, like, “We're going to do all these ESG projects, and we're going to-” the SEC is like, “We're going to do-”

David: They officially put that stake in the ground this week, like they're officially going to do this now. Yeah.

Blake: Right. But like, our accounting doesn't deal with intangible assets, and our economy has shifted from one based on transportation and manufacturing in the 50s and 60s to one based on, you know, where the primary driver of new value is intellectual capital - your human capital and your intellectual property, your processes, your brand, all that stuff.

And we do a really, really bad job of valuing intangibles ‘cause it's hard, and we haven't stepped up to the plate to try and do it. So, you know, come on. As a profession, this is our fault. We've been doing the same thing for a hundred years and the economy has moved on.

David: This is why I think Elon Musk buying Twitter, right? They can't agree because the numbers aren't standard.

Blake: Oh yeah.

David: They have two different views of the- how to- they don't know how to count the value of Twitter.

Blake: What is an active user? Maybe accountants could come up with a standard, so that then when we look at all these businesses that have users, they could all report on it the same way, or subscribers. What is a subscriber? How do we define it?

David: Define a bot. Accountingconferences.com will tweet out conferences then they’re 30 days away, seven days away, now that's a bot. Technically, it's not a person, but like, it's a user. I don’t know.

Blake: To me, if you're a subscription business, why don't we have all the subscription businesses reporting- all the public ones reporting their subscriber numbers, and we could have a standard way to compare that? And then it would be easier to invest in subscription businesses, and the insiders wouldn't have all that information, right?

That's part of the problem too, is that if you're an insider, you have access to this information, you can trade on it. I mean, you're not supposed to. Right? But we all know it happens. It's just, some people get caught, right? Sorry to go off on that rant on accounting standards, but you know, this is part of the whole critical thinking thing. I never was taught to think critically about accounting standards. I was just taught to memorize them.

David: Like, here are new best, wrote them originally. And you should just follow them, Blake, and don’t question authority.

Blake: Yeah, yeah, here's- this is GAAP. This is what you learn, but we don't learn about why we have GAAP. And then when I started reading about the history of accounting, I said, “Oh, now this all makes a lot of sense.” It was all based in railroads and transportation. And it was European investors who were putting large sums of money into American railroads.

And they obviously, weren't around to manage and oversee it themselves. And so, they required audited balance sheets.

David: We're working remotely from the other side of the ocean.

Blake: Exactly. Yeah. So, remote work or remote investing was what led to the start of it. And it was Scottish accountants- Scotland innovated and created the first chartered accountancy for CPAs, for CAs were in Scotland, and the European investors sent over the Scottish accountants to audit the railroads.

And then it transitioned into income statement being a focus in earnings per share, being a focus because in a manufacturing economy- manufacturing became big- your earnings per share is a really good measure of your future cash flows, or it's a really good indicator of potential future cash flows. Because it's all about minimizing your costs, increasing our efficiency in your manufacturing process so that you can have the largest profit margin.

David: Well, that's when companies ran under the concept of profit margins. I think, go off on that as well. This concept of- which is kind of what we're in right now.

Blake: And this is what- EPS is a terrible measure for subscription businesses, because a subscription business will take all of its profits- if they're doing it the right way- and invest all or even more of their profits every quarter into obtaining more customers, because they're going after future profit.

David: Yeah. Because you would basically- if you just made your investment decisions, you would have never invested in Amazon stock if you only based it on the financials that came out year after year after year after year. Yeah.

Blake: For 20 years. For 20 years.

David: You would have never invested in Amazon. If you didn't-

Blake: EPS, was it?

David: Yeah. That sort of model. We should get into app news.

[00:52:49] Podcast reviews

David: But before that, we got some reviews.

Blake: Let's hear them.

David: Here are the reviews. So, everybody, you can leave reviews, you can review- leave reviews in Apple Podcasts, right from your app. Just, you have to scroll way to the bottom though, to get the button that says ‘leave a review’, or you can go to Podchaser and leave reviews. What I would suggest though is- and you're going to see because of these two reviews- maybe leave your name. It'd be nice. That's all. It’d be nice to say your name when I read your review.

I will shout out possibly for you. So, we'll read the first one here. This is a five-star review on Apple Podcasts. It's- the title of the review says, “Great info. Relevant and interesting. I learn something new every week,” and this is from KLF1651. So, thank you, KLF.

Blake: Thank you, KLF.

David: And then the next one is five-star review, again on Apple Podcasts, the best accounting podcast out there, 10 of 10 podcasts, always giving the best updates on accounting while also keeping it interesting. And this is from WarMachine470.

Blake: Thank you.

David: I understand maybe people, you know, they got their Apple phones when they were teenagers and maybe that's their Apple ID or something, but yeah, you can type in the review with your name, you know- you could give your firm a plug. Right?

Blake: You could. Thank you so much for writing those reviews. They really mean a lot to us. They help us get more listeners because Apple surfaces or pushes podcasts into the feeds of potential new listeners, based on good reviews. So, do us a favor.

David: And then if somebody looks at them and they only see old reviews, they're like, “Oh, these guys must not be doing this anymore. Yeah, yeah, it must suck now.”

Blake: So, how could people help us out, David, and leave a review?

David: You can just go, like I said, just in Apple, scroll to the bottom, find on your Apple Podcast player- you have to scroll way down though, and there's a button to leave a review, or you go to Podchaser.com, find Cloud Accounting Podcast, and hit leave a review there as well for all the non-Apple people.

Blake: So, David, I monopolized a lot of our time in the show ranting about accounting standards. I apologize, ‘cause we're supposed to talk about accounting technology.

David: Well, we have app news now. We can jump in.

Blake: Well, we have like five minutes, so I'm going to let you pick.

David: Oh, this is easy. No problem. Yeah.

Blake: Okay. Go ahead.

[00:54:59] Melio announces bill pay in 70 different countries

David: Alright, so, really quick one. So, Melio, they announced that they’re going to-

Blake: What’s that? What's that?

David: Melio, Melio. So, they- so, my former employer, they announced by July 1st, they will be able to- you can pay bills in 70 different countries.

Blake: They didn't have international payments before?

David: They did not fully. It was just open to Canada and a few countries.

Blake: Oh, cool.

David: So now, it's going to be full-blown 70 countries.

Blake: Wow.

David: They announced that. And actually, I noticed on their website as well, they are actually offering APIs now. I haven't dug into it too much, but that- they didn't really announce that in the press. But on the new website, [INAUDIBLE] that could build apps using Melio APIs [CROSSTALK].

Blake: Oh, that's- plug in to Melio’s payment network? That could be really powerful. Cool.

[00:55:39] Lightspeed launches B2B platform for retail and sports manufacturers

David: That one. Lightspeed. So, Lightspeed's the point of sale. They're out of Canada. They want to buy ShopKeep, and they bought from Australia, the other-

Blake: They have a lot of bicycle shops, right?

David: Yeah, they kind of- that's where they started out. They own the bicycle shops because there's inventory- it's complicated. They got really good at retail point of sale.

Blake: Lots of parts. Yeah.

David: Well, they've taken it one step further now. They've launched a B2B platform for North American fashion, outdoor, and sports retailers. So, essentially, you, through your point of sale, if you're selling bicycle tires, you could order those directly from the manufacturer through your point of sale, and pay the bill- it's full B2B network.

You don't have to open up other software, go to some website, call your sales rep. So, it's a full-blown closed network. So, they have some brands- I'm not that hip with fashion, but Tom Ford, Coach, Theory, Black Diamond and Outdoor Voices.

Blake: Cool.

David: And this is built off of their November acquisition of NuORDER and NuORDER that they purchased- it was an e-commerce platform for $425 million, last November. So, they put that out.

[00:56:45] Lightyear enters partnership with Sage

David: Lightyear. Lightyear is similar to bill.com-type accounts payable automation software. They’re based in Ireland. It’s actually the Greg brothers who built a product before that they- Intuit wound up buying them really early on, and then did nothing with it, a long, long, long time ago.

I don't even remember the name of the product. So, years later, they started this- a new product company, Lightyear, but they've entered a strategic partnership with Sage to be the preferred accounts payable automation partner for Sage business cloud accounting and intact offerings.

And they'll basically- what's happening now is Sage Intacct’s really getting a lot of the benefit of this. Before, they didn't have a deep integration, so Sage Intacct would just get a JPEG image of a PDF, instead of- or JPEG image of a bill instead of the PDF. It's gonna allow them to automatically reconcile to the supplier statements.

It's going to match statements that are in Sage Intacct back to Lightyear. And so, you can use their Lightyear’s interface and- just less data entry. Right? So, it's a more of an official partnership there.

[00:57:49] Jotform releases official store

David: And then the last piece of app news I have is, have you ever heard of Jotform? I think someone-

Blake: I've heard of it. Yeah, yeah.

David: So, it's like, if you just need to- a Contact Us form. You want to spin up a little form, somebody fills it out, right? Whatever customer fields, and you can customize it. And there's other products out there that are like that. Well, apparently, they opened- they launched a product not too long ago called Jotform apps.

So, you could- so, instead of just creating a form, you could create kind of a miniature app per se. And what they've done now, because 30 percent of the apps that were built on that platform, people were building a store. So, they were building a store and customizing how to get payments from it. So, now, they just built an official Jotform store builder.

So, you could quickly just drag and drop elements to build a store within minutes, and connect it to 25 different payment gateways. So, PayPal, Stripe, Square, et cetera. There’s no additional transaction fees. They have like 70 widgets, works on any device. They have a hundred templates. So, it's just right out of the gate.

So, it's interesting to see how, even looking at, remember we discovered why Intuit purchased MailChimp. Because MailChimp started ecommerce stores, that all these apps are creating these tools so people can just create a store. And that's kind of the end of the app news.

[00:59:04] Thank you for listening

Blake: Awesome. Well, perfect timing ‘cause we're at the top of the hour. If people want to get ahold of you, David, and tell you what they think, where should they go?

David: Well, if you're at AICPA Engage, talk to us there. If you're at Scaling New Heights, talk to us in person there. If not, I'm on all the socials, @DavidLeary.

Blake: I am @BlakeTOliver. You are welcome to email me, Blake@BlakeOliver.com. Send us your thoughts about the stories on this episode or previous episodes, or stuff you think we should be covering. And if you're extra brave, send us a voicemail. We love hearing the voices of our listeners so it's not just us talking all the time.

We will listen and we will very, very, very likely play it on the air. I don't think I have ever not played a voicemail on the air. So, you want to hear yourself on The Cloud Accounting Podcast, the number one podcast for accountants in the world? Send me an email.

David: And what's the phone number?

Blake: I forget. We haven't done the phone number in a long time.

David: Or we don’t have the phone number anymore. I just remember it ends in 1040. I just don't remember the first three digits.

Blake: Well, so, we stopped doing that because the quality was so much better on the voice recordings and people can just make a voice memo on their phone and email it to me. So, Blake@BlakeOliver.com, make a voice memo. It'll sound way better than a phone call. We're moving up in the world, David.

David: [CROSSTALK] in Jotform, where you could just click and record a voicemail in a Jotform.

Blake: You know, like the IRS makes you fax stuff in, and phone them in. We're more advanced than that. Right? We can take an MP3 file or an M4A, I don't know what these files are.

David: Oh, somebody faxed- figured out how to fax one of us, I’d be done on the air.

Blake: We should have a fax number so people could- we should have a fax number, so people can fax in their thoughts.

David: Handwritten letters. On that note.

Blake: Send your mail to David's home address. Yes. On that note, I’ll see you here.

David: It's Mormon year, and I’ll see you in two days in Vegas.

Blake: I'm looking forward to it. See you then.

David: Awesome. All right, bye.

Time for the classifieds.

[01:00:53] Future Firm

David: If you're looking to quickly grow a scalable, systematic, seven-figure accounting firm without having to work 50 plus hours per week, check out Ryan Lazanis’ says online coaching membership, Future Firm Accelerate. Designed around Ryan's experience taking his cloud firm from scratch to sale, so that you don't have to reinvent the wheel.

You'll get online learning in topics that help you automate and systemize all aspects of your firm. You'll get coaching when you need help with implementation. And you'll also join a collaborative community of hundreds of other forward-thinking firm owners. For more details, head over to www.futurefirmaccelerate.com.

[01:01:28] getW9

David: Tired of clients not remembering to get W-9s? getW9 automates and streamlines the collection and storage of W-9s. getW9 has a QBO integration, and they have a partner program that pays 25 percent commissions. getW9 plans start at only $19 a year. Visit getW9.tax today to get started.

That is getW9.tax.

[01:01:54] Advisors For Change

Are you looking for a dream job in cloud accounting? We have the job for you. Advisors For Change delivers cloud accounting systems to small and medium nonprofit organizations. Join our team of friendly and collaborative nonprofit accounting professionals while working from home. Our systems associate will join our experienced systems manager to implement and support cloud accounting systems such as QBO, bill.com, Divvy, [INAUDIBLE] and others.

To learn more, head to our website at advisorsforchange.com/join-our-team. That's advisorsforchange.com/join-our-team, where you’ll find a link to the full position description on indeed.

[01:02:29] The Ambitious Bookkeeper

David: Are you ready to take your life and bookkeeping business to the next level? Are you aspiring to start your own bookkeeping business? Then hop on over to The Ambitious Bookkeeper Podcast where you'll find encouragement, support, tools, resources, practical strategies, and actual tips on starting, growing, and running a successful bookkeeping firm.

Plus, listen to guest expert interviews that will help you elevate your business and enhance your life. Go to ambitiousbookkeeper.com/podcast and subscribe now.

That's ambitiousbookkeeper.com/podcast.

[01:02:58] Royalwise

David: Are your bookkeeping clients driving you crazy asking the same questions over and over? They need QuickBooks training and you have more important things to do with your time. Let Royalwise be your training partner. Create your own customized client training program and outsource your QuickBooks training department.

Listeners of this podcast are invited to join our partner program and receive a 10 percent referral commission when you sign up. Join us at royalwise.com/partner to learn more and get started today.

Again, that's royalwise.com/partner.

[01:03:28] Oh My Fraud: A True Crime Podcast for Accountants

Blake: Hey, podcast listeners, it's Blake, and I wanted to let you know about a new show I'm working on with CPA/comedian, Greg Kyte, and blogger/former CPA, Caleb Newquist. It's called Oh My Fraud, and it's a podcast all about financial crimes. That's right, a true crime podcast for accountants, by accountants.

Caleb and Greg are going to come together every couple of weeks to unpack their favorite frauds, and explore the circumstances, psychology, and interpersonal dynamics involved. They also fully indulge in victim blaming the defrauded widows, orphans, infirm, and feebleminded - because who can resist?

If you fancy yourself a trusted advisor, or prefer your true crime with spreadsheets instead of corpses, listen to this show to learn what to watch out for, and to keep your clients, your firm, and even yourself, safe. To subscribe, go to ohmyfraud.com, or search "Oh My Fraud" on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[01:04:27] How to advertise in these classifieds

David: Want to get the word out about your newsletter, webinar, party, Facebook group, podcast, e-book, job posting, or that fancy Excel macro you just created? Why not let the listeners of The Cloud Accounting Podcast know by running a classified ad? Hit the show notes for the link to get more info.